janet
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Posts: 7
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Post by janet on Jan 27, 2008 19:35:04 GMT
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Post by sullyo on Jan 28, 2008 18:34:49 GMT
I would not be quick to believe the results, the skull that was identified as Nicholas II s has not even got the sword cut on it he got on a trip to japan.
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Post by donald1941 on Jan 28, 2008 19:21:04 GMT
That might have some validity were it not for the fact that the wound Nicholas II suffered at Otsu did not penetrate his skull to leave an impression. Sufficient research on the topic has revealed that he received a sword wound that cut through the skin and down to the bone but did not penetrate or leave an indentation on the skull. His hat and hair as well as the fact that Nicholas tried to turn away from the attack meant the sword did not cause a fatal strike. The wound bled profusely, because all head wounds do, but it was not life threatening. He was able to walk and the next day he returned to the Russian fleet with only a bandage on the wound. Had the sword penetrated the skull it would have been life threatening, especially in those days, and he would have been committed to the hospital.
Therefore, Nicholas II's skull did not have a scar on it, only his forehead showed a scar in his skin. Since all tissue had long since decomposed by the time the grave was opened it was impossible to determine that, but the lack of a scar on the skull is
indicative of nothing.
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dunkeld
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Posts: 5
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Post by dunkeld on Mar 11, 2008 21:44:49 GMT
I find the DNA evidence compelling.....did they not positively identify the remains of Alexandra, Olga, Tatiana and Anastasia back in the 90's with mDNA comparisons to living relatives (the Duke of Edinburgh)? If those tests were accurate then comparing these would be easy as Maria and Alexei are from the same mDNA line, no?
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Post by donald1941 on Mar 12, 2008 16:22:08 GMT
Yes, the DNA evidence as well as other physical evidence is very compelling. However, the Russian Orthodox Church, for complex political reasons, disputed the findings and question that the bones were those of the imperial family. This has led to controversial claims that the Bosheviks set up this elaborate ruse and subsititued bodies, then reburied the bodies, etc. Some people just can't accept the evident and look for the convoluted.
If those are the remains of Alexei and Maria then it will be no problem to identify them by the forensic evidence available.
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dazur
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Post by dazur on Apr 26, 2008 2:53:13 GMT
I am very curious, how many bodies were to be in these graves?
Whose DNA results have actually been conclusive so far?
Who is alive today who is actually related to them by bloodlines?
Thanks!
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Post by donald1941 on Apr 26, 2008 20:03:34 GMT
11 people were murdered in the Ipatiev House that night. Nicholas, Alexandra, Olga, Tatiana, Maria, Anastasia, Alexis, Dr. Botkin, Anna Demidova, Trupp and Kharitonov.
In the grave 9 skeletons were found. These were identified as Nicholas, Alexandra, Olga, Tatiana, one of the youngest girls, Dr. Botkin, Demidova, Trupp and Karitonov. The skeleton of Alexis was missing. There is disagreement as to whether the the skeleton of the youngest girl is Maria or Anastasia, and which one is missing.
The bits of bones found recently are suspected to be those of Alexis and either Maria or Anastasia.
The bones of the children matched the DNA collected from the bones of Nicholas and Alexandra thus proving they were their children. Nicholas DNA was compared to DNA taken from the body of his brother GD George, whose body was exhumed from its tomb in Peter and Paul Cathedral, as well as DNA from surviving members of the Dowager Empress Marie Feodorovna's Danish family. Alexandra DNA was compared to DNA from surviving members of her mother's English and German family [Prince Philip who was a great nephew is one example].
The DNA from all these sources matched the DNA from the skeletons to the point that little doubt remains.
The controversy aroused by the Russian Orthodox Church and others was mainly political and had little scientific evidence to support it.
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Post by donald1941 on Apr 26, 2008 20:11:22 GMT
Both of Nicholas II's sisters and their families managed to get out of Russia. Today there are descendants of both sisters alive, and some of these attended the recent reburial of the body of the Dowager Empress. For example, Olga's grand-daughter is still alive and lives in Denmark.
Alexandra is survived by the descendants of her brother and sisters [Hesse and By Rhine grand ducal family].
They would be too numerous to list here. But there are plenty of available Romanov and Hessian blood lines to test the DNA against.
The DNA of the woman known as Anna Anderson did not match the DNA of either Nicholas or Alexandra, thus proving she was not the Grand Duchess Anastasia, but a clever impersonator.
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Post by vittoria on Apr 26, 2008 23:11:46 GMT
Donald1941 has offered very useful and accurate information, though romantics and conspiracy theorists will probably never accept it. On the subject of the original DNA tests on the tissue and hair of Anna Anderson, interested people should begin by reading Robert K. Massie's book "The Romanovs: The Final Chapter (New York: Random House, 1995). Once you've waded through Massie's information, you'll be better prepared to understand the issues involving the two, recently-discovered sets of remains. And yes, there are many Romanov relatives against whom the DNA can be tested. I attended university with one of them.
As long as the remains of four sisters can be identified, then it doesn't matter which three sisters were in the grave with their parents and which one sister's remains were found outside of it, with those of Alexis. People may argue about whether Marie or Anastasia was found here or there -- but four, dead, genetically-related Romanov sisters, wherever their remains were found, should finally put paid to the myths and legends. There were, after all, only four. No one has ever claimed the existence of some fifth, phantom sister.
So, at long last, we can be certain -- as we should have been long ago -- that the five children died with their parents and with Dr. Botkin, the valet Trupp, the maid Demidova, and the cook Kharitonov.
RIP to all of them.
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Post by donald1941 on Apr 27, 2008 22:01:51 GMT
Of course, if the DNA tests prove that the bits and pieces found are not the other two children, then the mystery of what happened to their bodies will remain. Some will use this as the hook on which to believe that Anastasia could well have escaped. There are some who believe Alexis also escaped and lived into the 1960s. Let us hope the test are conclusive and that the remains are the two imperial children.
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Post by Ibelieveinfairytales on Apr 30, 2008 15:08:47 GMT
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Post by alexienichole90 on May 1, 2008 6:03:57 GMT
I just saw this come out today that the lab here in the US has confirmed that the final two sets of remains are the Romanovs but the person who did the testing was not the one who made the announcement, he gave his results to the prosecutors office in Yekaterinburg.
I'm one of those who also believes in fairy tales especially this one and has for a very long time. I would love to see them fully reunited of course. I guess one thing I still pin my hopes on is the book "the last tsar: the life and death of Nicholas II" by Edvard Radzinsky. Chapter 16 talks about Lyukhanov, one of those present that fateful night almost 90 years ago, who's story isnt the official one Russia wants everyone to know and that two bodies were missing and removed from the truck when it got stuck in the mud at railway booth 184. Yurovsky's "story" is the official one. he was in charge that night but will history always assume his story was correct or just what Lenin wanted to hear and therefore made the official story to quell these myths that still exist today
Yes DNA testing is being done including DNA from Prince Phillip but its Russia's results that count and only their opinion (at least in their minds). The church didnt accept the results last time, will they this time? The last time yes I do believe they were correct, but this time I just don't know. Maybe Anna Anderson wasn't Anastasia but someone knows the truth
I read about the procession from St Petersburg to Yekaterinbug as well. I'm hoping to go to Russia in 10 years for the 100th anniversary of that fateful night. More that these dNA results and the wishful and hopeful thinking that one did survive is that Russia will actually finally admit that there were murdered on Lenin's orders
"whispering mirrors. Mirrors in the sad quiet of the Winter Palace, reflect the brazen glance of a shaven face. In every hall, indifferent, In every corner, someone in a jacket gazes upon his greatness. Once yiedling to the dazzle, the country's hero imagines, that all must fall before him in humble worship. That the road to splendid glory lies before him. barely audible, though, in reply, the mirrors whisper: "what care we for empty speeches, impertinent newcomer, the triumph of centuries past guards this palace. Power glorious, imperial, shadows incorporeal. no momentary guest shall drive away the guests of ages past.... Stop! Never forget too long of the crown of the tsar, he will rise up soon, rise up terribly, yellow dawn, .... So, witnesses of the past, Just as the gloom appears--- the mirrors whisper the word. The coming truth"
Alexie
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Post by donald1941 on May 2, 2008 22:08:19 GMT
It seems that Governor Rossel of Sverdlovsk is a little anxious to be the first to give out the news. Not all the test are yet completed and confirmed and the news that the test confirm these to be the bones of Alexei and Maria are a little premature. The results seem to indicate that some of the bone shards are indeed Romanov but that could only mean that the bodies were dismembered in this spot and these bone shards left. It does not necessarily mean that the bones belonged exclusively to the missing son and daughter. It is probably best to await the official report and what it confirms before making a final judgement. Hopefully the tests in all respects will be positive. Readers might want to check out this website: www.searchfoundationinc.org/New-Press-Release.html |
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Post by DAVID on Jan 11, 2011 16:03:08 GMT
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Post by erniesgurl1967 on Mar 15, 2011 20:32:17 GMT
What about Anne Anderson? She was suppose to be the youngest daughter.
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