HSH and HRH

[Ibelieveinfairytales]

I've always thought that Serene Highness was a lower title than Royal Highness. Princess Caroline of Monaco is HRH The Princess of Hanover and her brother is HSH Albert II. Does that mean that Caroline ranks higher than her brother?

[observer]

Does that mean that Caroline ranks higher than her brother? Although in general HRHs rank higher than HSHs, in this case the answer is probably "No." He is a reigning prince, she is the wife of a pretender and holds the title by courtesy and convention because (a) Hanover disappeared as a separate independent state in 1866, when it was annexed by Prussia; (b) despite his pretensions, Ernest is NOT a British prince; and (c) Germany abolished all royal and noble titles in 1919 (though they are used socially). Even is Monaco recognizes her as HRH, she still ranks below her reigning brother and even is she succeeds him as reigning princess, the HRH cannot pass through her to her successors as Sovereign Princes or Princesses of Monaco.

[Ibelieveinfairytales]

So if she were to succeed her brother, what would happen to her HRH title? Would she be HSH Princess Caroline of Monaco, HRH Princess of Hanover?

[observer]

Jul 9, 2009 15:57:41 GMT Ibelieveinfairytales said:

So if she were to succeed her brother, what would happen to her HRH title? Would she be HSH Princess Caroline of Monaco, HRH Princess of Hanover?

It is difficult to tell in advance how she would choose to be addressed in the event that she became Sovereign Princess of Monaco. Strictly speaking, however, she is not HRH Princess of Hanover, but HRH Princess Ernst of Hanover in the same way as Princess Michael of Kent, but convention suggests that she would come HRH Princess Caroline I of Monaco, though her successors would revert to HSH.

[Ibelieveinfairytales]

Jul 10, 2009 1:41:52 GMT observer said:

It is difficult to tell in advance how she would choose to be addressed in the event that she became Sovereign Princess of Monaco. Strictly speaking, however, she is not HRH Princess of Hanover, but HRH Princess Ernst of Hanover in the same way as Princess Michael of Kent, but convention suggests that she would come HRH Princess Caroline I of Monaco, though her successors would revert to HSH.

Interesting, I don't think I've ever heard her addressed as HRH Princess Ernst of Hanover. The official site for Monaco lists her as HRH Princess of Hanover.

www.palais.mc/monaco/x-net/internet-palais-princier/english/h.r.h.-princess-of-hanover/biography/biography.388.html

I was looking at Wikipedia (not that it's the be all and end all of sources) and there's an interesting discussion in the 'Talk' tab about her title.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Caroline,_Princess_of_Hanover

Just mentioning it for interests sake.

[HRISMH Duke Rico]

In the past it had been correct to rank royal highnesses above serene highnesses where neither the HRH or the HSH holder were the head of the house. In practice Prince William of Wales would have outranked Princess Caroline (as a Monagasque princess) as she still holds HSH in her own right. Albert II would out rank The Prince of Wales (Charles) as Albert is a soverign prince while Charles is an heir apparent prince (for want of a better description).

I have to again disagree with Observer, it is recognised that outside of Germany, Ernst is titled as HRH THE Prince of Hannover, therefore custom suggests (in some cases DICTATES) that Caroline is correctly titled as HRH THE Princess of Hannover.

Caroline would IMO most likely use a fusion of both styles being legally HR & SH The Soverign Princess, her youngest daughter may also use that style in the event of Caroline's accession, as she hold the royal title in her own right.

[Ibelieveinfairytales]

Jul 10, 2009 13:21:12 GMT HRISMH Duke Rico said:

Caroline would IMO most likely use a fusion of both styles being legally HR & SH The Soverign Princess, her youngest daughter may also use that style in the event of Caroline's accession, as she hold the royal title in her own right.

Her youngest daughter, HRH Princess Alexandra is the only one of her children who is titled. Would her title change if her mother became Sovereign Princess?

[observer]

Jul 10, 2009 13:21:12 GMT HRISMH Duke Rico said:

In the past it had been correct to rank royal highnesses above serene highnesses where neither the HRH or the HSH holder were the head of the house. In practice Prince William of Wales would have outranked Princess Caroline (as a Monagasque princess) as she still holds HSH in her own right. Albert II would out rank The Prince of Wales (Charles) as Albert is a soverign prince while Charles is an heir apparent prince (for want of a better description).

I have to again disagree with Observer, it is recognised that outside of Germany, Ernst is titled as HRH THE Prince of Hannover, therefore custom suggests (in some cases DICTATES) that Caroline is correctly titled as HRH THE Princess of Hannover.

Caroline would IMO most likely use a fusion of both styles being legally HR & SH The Soverign Princess, her youngest daughter may also use that style in the event of Caroline's accession, as she hold the royal title in her own right. [/quote

Ernst is not "titled" but is "styled" The Prince of Hanover.

[hovite]

Jul 9, 2009 2:32:50 GMT observer said:

(c) Germany abolished all royal and noble titles in 1919 (though they are used socially).

German law only applies inside Germany, but in any case German titles are still used in Germany, and no one has ever been prosecuted for using one, so the law is not applied, and it is probably now in conflict with European law, which forbids the confiscation of assets for political reasons. Indeed, when Caroline sued some German magazines, the European Court of Human Rights reported “Princess Caroline von Hannover, was born in 1957 and is the eldest daughter of Prince Rainier III of Monaco”.

www.echr.coe.int/eng/Press/2004/June/ChamberjudgmentVonHannover240604.htm

Most German titles are not German at all, but were created within the Holy Roman Empire, which is now dissolved. Liechtenstein is acknowledged to be a successor state to the Holy Roman Empire and continues to recognize Imperial titles, which therefore remain valid internationally.

www.chivalricorders.org/nobility/holyroman/

Austria is also said to have abolished titles, but Prince of Liechtenstein is itself an Austrian title, as Liechtenstein is a castle in Lower Austria. In 1608 the Lord of Liechtenstein was raised to rank of Prince of the Holy Roman Empire, and in 1722 the then Prince bought the Lordship of Vaduz, which is where the current Prince resides, but he also still owns two palaces in Vienna, the Palais Liechtenstein and the Stadtpalais Liechtenstein.

www.tourmycountry.com/austria/stadtpalais-liechtenstein.htm

[observer]

Jul 18, 2009 22:45:05 GMT hovite said:

Jul 9, 2009 2:32:50 GMT observer said:

(c) Germany abolished all royal and noble titles in 1919 (though they are used socially).

German law only applies inside Germany, but in any case German titles are still used in Germany, and no one has ever been prosecuted for using one, so the law is not applied, and it is probably now in conflict with European law, which forbids the confiscation of assets for political reasons. Indeed, when Caroline sued some German magazines, the European Court of Human Rights reported “Princess Caroline von Hannover, was born in 1957 and is the eldest daughter of Prince Rainier III of Monaco”.

www.echr.coe.int/eng/Press/2004/June/ChamberjudgmentVonHannover240604.htm

Most German titles are not German at all, but were created within the Holy Roman Empire, which is now dissolved. Liechtenstein is acknowledged to be a successor state to the Holy Roman Empire and continues to recognize Imperial titles, which therefore remain valid internationally.

www.chivalricorders.org/nobility/holyroman/

Austria is also said to have abolished titles, but Prince of Liechtenstein is itself an Austrian title, as Liechtenstein is a castle in Lower Austria. In 1608 the Lord of Liechtenstein was raised to rank of Prince of the Holy Roman Empire, and in 1722 the then Prince bought the Lordship of Vaduz, which is where the current Prince resides, but he also still owns two palaces in Vienna, the Palais Liechtenstein and the Stadtpalais Liechtenstein.

www.tourmycountry.com/austria/stadtpalais-liechtenstein.htm

German titles are part of a surname in Germany. Even if it is widely regarded as a legal fiction, that fact remains that inside Germany royal and noble titles were abolished under the Weimar Republic. Any recognition of the titles outside Germany is a courtesy only, as the Hannovers - as German citizens - are subject to German law and not to the laws of other countries. I doubt that European law is retroactive, so your point about the confiscation of assets is a red herring.

Note, that Caroline was referred to as "von Hannover,” even though her father was referred to as 'of Monaco."　Ｉ　imagine this usage reflects her legal German surname.

Your quotation from Chivalric Orders is misleading. The full sources states that " The Principality of Liechtenstein has claimed to be able to confirm the succession to Imperial titles and has confirmed the right of a Spanish nobleman to be heir to such a title, for purposes of the Spanish law requiring the successor state to confirm that the claimant to a particular title is in fact the heir. Thus there is a remaining jurisdiction, even though no Imperial titles have been conferred since 1806."

Whether Liechtenstein in fact is regarded in international law (leaving aside the unique circumstances described above) as a successor state - any more than Austria or Luxemborg - and what it means is unclear. Other successor states include Germany, the Czech Republic, Switzerland (independent since 1648), Italy (except the southern parts), San Marino, Monaco, Belgium and the Netherlands (independant since 1648). Note several of those abolished royal and noble titles.

I think your thinking on the origin of the title of "Prince of Liechtenstein" is muddled. The castle of Liechtenstein may be south of Vienna, but the title is from the Holy Roman Empire in 1719, not the Austrian Empire, which dates from 1806. The abolition by the Austrian Republic of noble titles did not affect the Liechtensteins as they had been an independent sovereign principality since 1806, and not subject to Austrian law.
www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/9403.htm