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Post by The (BLANK) of... on Jan 26, 2010 1:45:20 GMT
Hello Everyone!
I have what should be a quick question... for this instance, I am going to use a fake person for an example. We shall call her Anna-Maria Victoria-Louise de Florring.
Our so called "Anna" is the direct male-line descendant of MANY ancient Kings of Denmark... Her line is direct, in the male-line, and is legitimate through and through.
Given that "Anna" is a member of the ancient royal house by male-line primogeniture and house rules, could she then not style herself as "Princess Anna?" The royal house she descends is called "Carrabassa" (made-up royal house). Anna wants to style herself as Anna-Maria Victoria-Louise de Florring, Princess Carrabassa. Would this not be legal for her to do?
Thank you for your help and input!
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Post by observer on Jan 27, 2010 0:54:12 GMT
Hello Everyone! I have what should be a quick question... for this instance, I am going to use a fake person for an example. We shall call her Anna-Maria Victoria-Louise de Florring. Our so called "Anna" is the direct male-line descendant of MANY ancient Kings of Denmark... Her line is direct, in the male-line, and is legitimate through and through. Given that "Anna" is a member of the ancient royal house by male-line primogeniture and house rules, could she then not style herself as "Princess Anna?" The royal house she descends is called "Carrabassa" (made-up royal house). Anna wants to style herself as Anna-Maria Victoria-Louise de Florring, Princess Carrabassa. Would this not be legal for her to do? Thank you for your help and input! Whether it would be legal or not depends entirely, I believe, on the laws of the country in which your hypothetical royal descendant resides. If she lives in Denmark, then she would be subject to Danish law on the use of styles and titles. People living in the UK can call themselves anything they want to - provided it is not for fraudulent purposes. In other countries - Austria, Germany, Italy, etc - the use of styles and titles is not permitted by anyone if they are citizens of that country. |
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hovite
Member of the Court
Posts: 40
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Post by hovite on Jan 28, 2010 1:41:56 GMT
Whether it would be legal or not depends entirely, I believe, on the laws of the country in which your hypothetical royal descendant resides. If she lives in Denmark, then she would be subject to Danish law on the use of styles and titles. People living in the UK can call themselves anything they want to - provided it is not for fraudulent purposes. Foreign titles for British nationals are not recognized, because Elizabeth I ruled: "as a woman should not follow any man but her husband, so a Subject should not receive any thing but from his owne Prince. I would not my sheepe should be branded with anothers marke: neither would I have them to be at anothers call or whistle." www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/foreigntitles.htmIn other countries - Austria, Germany, Italy, etc - the use of styles and titles is not permitted by anyone if they are citizens of that country. The German law is not enforced. People still use titles. When German royalty and nobility visit Britain they are referred to by their titles. Television coverage of last year's Royal Windsor Horse Show revealed that the person seated next to HM The Queen was "Princess Ludwig". www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/others/sport-on-tv-horses-hearses-and-how-to-park-a-carriage-in-the-garage-1761457.htmlBut if a foreigner adopts British nationality, then any foreign title must be dropped. |
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Post by The (BLANK) of... on Jan 28, 2010 4:03:17 GMT
Let's say that this "anna" was the male-line descendant of an ancient royal swedish house... What then?
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Post by observer on Jan 28, 2010 5:33:00 GMT
Whether it would be legal or not depends entirely, I believe, on the laws of the country in which your hypothetical royal descendant resides. If she lives in Denmark, then she would be subject to Danish law on the use of styles and titles. People living in the UK can call themselves anything they want to - provided it is not for fraudulent purposes. Foreign titles for British nationals are not recognized, because Elizabeth I ruled: "as a woman should not follow any man but her husband, so a Subject should not receive any thing but from his owne Prince. I would not my sheepe should be branded with anothers marke: neither would I have them to be at anothers call or whistle." www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/foreigntitles.htmIn other countries - Austria, Germany, Italy, etc - the use of styles and titles is not permitted by anyone if they are citizens of that country. The German law is not enforced. People still use titles. When German royalty and nobility visit Britain they are referred to by their titles. Television coverage of last year's Royal Windsor Horse Show revealed that the person seated next to HM The Queen was "Princess Ludwig". www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/others/sport-on-tv-horses-hearses-and-how-to-park-a-carriage-in-the-garage-1761457.htmlBut if a foreigner adopts British nationality, then any foreign title must be dropped. My posting was in answer to BLANK's question, which asked, " Anna wants to style herself as Anna-Maria Victoria-Louise de Florring, Princess Carrabassa. Would this not be legal for her to do?" As I replied, "It is actually perfectly legal for anyone in the UK over the age of 16 to call themselves by whatever name they so desire, provided they do not intend to defraud anyone by using the new name - see www.lawontheweb.co.uk/basics/changeofname.htm. I was not referring to the official recognition of the title such as used to be given by Royal License. German titles are legally surnames, and their use outside Germany is a matter of courtesy rather than of right or law. I do not believe that there is actually any legal requirement for naturalized British subjects either to 'cease to use' or 'not to resume' a foreign title - see www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/TNA/HO_45_15677.htm, and also www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/policyandlaw/nationalityinstructions/nisec1prosec/titles%28foreign%29?view=Binary. Such titles are simply not officially recognized but they can be use socially - in the same way that German titles are used in the UK! The late John Profumo, for example, held but did not use the Sardinian title of 5th Baron Profumo. The late singer John McCormack was a Papal count and widely known by the title - though not officially. Countess Markievicz was known socially by her husband's title. With regard to foreign titles held by British citizens, the subsidiary titles of the Duke of Wellington include Portuguese, Spanish and Netherlands titles, and Nelson was Duke of Bronté in the Two Sicilies, a title inherited by his collateral descendant the present day 7th Duke. The Scottish Duke of Richmond, etc., also holds the French Dukedom of Aubigny, and both the Dukes of Abercorn and Hamilton claim the Dukedom of Chatelherault. |
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Post by observer on Jan 28, 2010 5:33:54 GMT
Let's say that this "anna" was the male-line descendant of an ancient royal swedish house... What then? Same answer as for Denmark |
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Post by The (BLANK) of... on Jan 30, 2010 10:19:39 GMT
kinda of like how the Greek Princes call themselves "Prince of Greece AND DENMARK..." The descendants of the Swedish monarchs in the direct male-line can call themselves "Prince" if they so are empted to.  I see. thank you all. |
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Post by HRISMH Duke Rico on Feb 2, 2010 2:35:38 GMT
Hello Everyone! I have what should be a quick question... for this instance, I am going to use a fake person for an example. We shall call her Anna-Maria Victoria-Louise de Florring. Our so called "Anna" is the direct male-line descendant of MANY ancient Kings of Denmark... Her line is direct, in the male-line, and is legitimate through and through. Given that "Anna" is a member of the ancient royal house by male-line primogeniture and house rules, could she then not style herself as "Princess Anna?" The royal house she descends is called "Carrabassa" (made-up royal house). Anna wants to style herself as Anna-Maria Victoria-Louise de Florring, Princess Carrabassa. Would this not be legal for her to do? Thank you for your help and input! If the rules governing the use of titles in the House of Carrabassa, allow her ancestors to pass on the title in the same way that the real Danish royal family does, then she would legally be Her Highness Princess Anna of Denmark, if the rules are like those of the House of Windsor, then she could not use 'princess' in a title format only as a name or part of one. |
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Post by observer on Feb 2, 2010 2:59:27 GMT
kinda of like how the Greek Princes call themselves "Prince of Greece AND DENMARK..." The descendants of the Swedish monarchs in the direct male-line can call themselves "Prince" if they so are empted to. I see. thank you all. I think you misunderstood my reply. I meant that if your hypothetical princess was Swedish then my answer would have been the same as when she was a hypothetical Danish princess - that is, that what she styled and titled herself was dependent entirely on where she lived, not that she could use the same style and titles as the Greek royal family. Moreover, it would also depend on whether any marriage in her ancestry was morganatic. In any event, I believe that the Vasa royal family is extinct in both the male and female lines - except for the Bernadottes who descend from them. |
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Post by The (BLANK) of... on Feb 2, 2010 9:19:09 GMT
Vasa? Hmm... never heard of it. Is it a former Swedish dynasty? I truly created "Carabassa" for a hypothetical situation, nothing more.
However, I do understand what you are saying. I did not meant to imply that "Anna" was going to be a Princess of Greece and Denmark, but was simply using them as an example for deposed or formerly ruling royal families. Thank you.
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Post by The (BLANK) of... on Feb 2, 2010 9:24:05 GMT
Hello Everyone! I have what should be a quick question... for this instance, I am going to use a fake person for an example. We shall call her Anna-Maria Victoria-Louise de Florring. Our so called "Anna" is the direct male-line descendant of MANY ancient Kings of Denmark... Her line is direct, in the male-line, and is legitimate through and through. Given that "Anna" is a member of the ancient royal house by male-line primogeniture and house rules, could she then not style herself as "Princess Anna?" The royal house she descends is called "Carrabassa" (made-up royal house). Anna wants to style herself as Anna-Maria Victoria-Louise de Florring, Princess Carrabassa. Would this not be legal for her to do? Thank you for your help and input! If the rules governing the use of titles in the House of Carrabassa, allow her ancestors to pass on the title in the same way that the real Danish royal family does, then she would legally be Her Highness Princess Anna of Denmark, if the rules are like those of the House of Windsor, then she could not use 'princess' in a title format only as a name or part of one. Thank you, Rico! That is the answer I was searching for. Take care. |
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I see. thank you all.