Russia's new 'Tsar.'

[donald1941]

Dimtri Medvedev has been inauguarated as Russia's new president. It would seem with some of the pomp and ceremony that used to be associated with the tsars.
He arrived at the great ceremonial entrance to the Grand Kremlin Palace. It was here that the tsars stayed during the coronation ceremonies.
He walked up the red carpeted grand staircase to the palace's huge ceremonial rooms. The stairs were lined with soldiers of the Presidential Guard Unit, wearing dress uniforms that resembled the Preobrajensky and Semyonevsky Guards of imperial days, circa 1812.
He was escorted in a parade through the St. George's Hall and the St. Alexander's Hall into the huge St. Andrew's Hall where he would take the oath of office.
The room was filled with officials, diplomatic guests, the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church and other church dignataries.
St. Andrew's Hall had been the throne room in tsarists days. During the Soviet era its decor and that of adjoining St. Alexander's Hall had been stripped and the two rooms combined to create a huge meeting room for the Supreme Soviet of the U.S.S.R. Both halls have been restored to their imperial days and the throne set up one again.
Medvedev was invested with the president's grand chain of the new Russian order of merit, which resembles very closely the old imperial order of St. Andrew the First Called.
The presidential standard is the Russian tricolor of blue, white red with a golden Romanov eagle superimposed over it.
It would seem that the Russians are trying to recapture some of the old imperial pomp.
The only reminder of Soviet days was the grand and soaring strains of Russia's national anthem, which is the old Soviet anthem with new words. Not a strain of the Internationale was to be heard.

[observer]

May 7, 2008 18:30:33 GMT donald1941 said:

.....The presidential standard is the Russian tricolor of blue, white red with a golden Romanov eagle superimposed over it.
...

If it is a golden eagle it is not a Romanov eagle - that was black. And the image of St George on it is reversed. Two-headed eagles are fairly common in national heraldry.

[donald1941]

I apologize for my poor choice of words. I shall retract, and edit.
The golden eagle on the presidential flag and the Russian Federation coat of arms is almost an exact replica of the eagle used in imperial times, with the exception of the color and the fact that the image of St. George is reversed, and the provincial shields on the wings are missing.
In my opinion, that is close enough for government work. A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet.
I am not sure just how to define "common." The two headed eagle was from Byzantine times almost always associated with the imperial dignity. Austria used it, and so did Russia after it identified itself as heir to the Byzantine empire. The German Empire stuck with the one headed eagle. Only Albania and Serbia uses it today. Austria uses the eagle today but it is single headed.

[observer]

May 8, 2008 16:22:13 GMT donald1941 said:

.....
I am not sure just how to define "common." The two headed eagle was from Byzantine times almost always associated with the imperial dignity. Austria used it, and so did Russia after it identified itself as heir to the Byzantine empire. The German Empire stuck with the one headed eagle. Only Albania and Serbia uses it today. Austria uses the eagle today but it is single headed.

The German Confederation had a double-headed black eagle on gold/yellow as its arms; Montenegro had and has a gold double-headed eagle on red as its arms and flag; Yugoslavia had a silver double-headed eagle; Mt Athos - the religious republic within Greece - flies a double-headed black eagle on gold in the old Byzantine style.

Technically, too, it is not strictly speaking a "Romanov" eagle because its use pre-dates that dynasty's imperial rule. It was adopted by Ivan III the Great on his marriage to Zoe (or Sophia) Paleologus.

The Ancestral Arms of His Imperial Majesty the Lord Emperor and Autocrat of All Russias were, namely, Per pale, 1. Argent, a griffin segreant Gules, holding a sword proper and a round shield Or, ensigned upon its upper edge with an eaglet Sable, all within a bordure Sable, charged with eight lion's heads erased Or and Argent alternately. They were displayed below the main shield in the Great Coat of Arms.

Like the double-headed eagle of Austria, that of Imperial Russia, strictly speaking, was the State Arms. The House of Hapsburg arms were were crowned red lion, armed and fanged blue, on gold.

[donald1941]

You can quibble about words all you want---technically this and actually that, but in the end it doesn't in any way divert from my original idea, i.e. Russia has reverted to using many symbols of its imperial days.
And most people did and would assoicate the black double headed eagle of Russia as a Romanov symbol, despite the technicality and the quibling, just as they would associate the black double headed eagle of Austria as a Habsburg symbol, despite the technicalities. Both came to symbolize the imperial house of each country and its members. Very few Romanov grand dukes would use the griffin as their arms just a very few Habsburg archdukes would use the red lion as their arms.
As for Serbia and Montenegro, both rather late comers to the game, they tried to ape the association with the Byzantine Empire, or the Empire of the Romans, by using the bicephalic eagle just like Russia did when it adopted it. This eagle has always been associated with Byzantine imperial dignity. Even Napoleon used only a single headed eagle when he tried to recreate the empire of Charlemagne because the double headed eagle was too closely assoicated with the Habsburgs and Romanovs and Napoleon didn't want people to think he was aping them.
And to get really technical, the black bicephalic eagle was originally a supporter rather than the arms of the imperial houses. Only later did both houses adopted a great coat of arms that put the eagle on the shield and thus made it the arms.

[donald1941]

I Googled the words "the Romanov eagle" to see what would come up. Each page had ten entries on it. I stopped reading after page 13. It would seem I am not the only one who associates the double headed eagle with the Romanovs.

[observer]

May 9, 2008 10:09:08 GMT donald1941 said:

......
As for Serbia and Montenegro, both rather late comers to the game, they tried to ape the association with the Byzantine Empire, or the Empire of the Romans, by using the bicephalic eagle just like Russia did when it adopted it. This eagle has always been associated with Byzantine imperial dignity.

Medieval Serbia used the silver double-headed eagle from at least the Nemanjic dynasty, in the 12-13th centuries, long before the Romanovs in the 17th. The Montenegrin Crnojević dynasty in the late 15th century CE is thought to have copied medieval Serbia's arms, though these arms were based on the medieval Byzantine one of the Palaiologi. Albania's eagle is said to be that of Skanderbeg (c. 1403-1468).

May 9, 2008 10:09:08 GMT donald1941 said:

... Even Napoleon used only a single headed eagle when he tried to recreate the empire of Charlemagne because the double headed eagle was too closely assoicated with the Habsburgs and Romanovs and Napoleon didn't want people to think he was aping them.

Charlemagne used a one-headed eagle and Napoleon I's similar single-headed eagle was adopted from Imperial Rome. It is not an heraldic eagle but an ancient eagle clutching a thunderbolt, just like Jupiter's eagle.

May 9, 2008 10:09:08 GMT donald1941 said:

... And to get really technical, the black bicephalic eagle was originally a supporter rather than the arms of the imperial houses. Only later did both houses adopted a great coat of arms that put the eagle on the shield and thus made it the arms.

I don't recall disagreeing. It was common to use an eagle as a supporter to show princely rank.

I don't believe there are any real Romanov grand dukes left, but as for Romanov princes using the griffin, Prince Michael Romanoff-Ilyinski uses it, as does Prince Dimitry Romanov, see www.dimitriy-romanov-fund.eu/trademark-english.htm

[donald1941]

Prince Dimitri is using the wrong coat of arms, although he has the right to use any symbol he chooses.
The imperial house of Russia was properly the House of Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov, and its coat of arms was as depicted on the Great Coat of Arms of Russia, a Romanov griffin bordered and the arms of Holstein-Gottorp, per pale.
I have in front of me now a book with the coat of arms of Russian grand dukes and princes and grand duchess going back to before Peter the Great. In almost all cases the grand duke's coat of arms shows a variation of the black doubled headed eagle modified. Grand Duchesses who married into the family used a coat of arms with their families arms per pale with the black double headed eagle.Thus my original statment that the golden eagle now used for the state arms of Russia is a variation on the Romanov eagle because that particular shape and form of the eagle is associated with the Russian imperial house. All else is comentary.
Whether the Grand Duke George and the Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna is a 'true' grand duke or grand duchess depends on which side of the argument one takes about Kyril's right as Sovereign Emperor and Autocrat to amend the Pauline Law. And that is a whole nuther argument.

[observer]

Chapter Six of the Fundamental State Laws of the Russian Empire quite explicitly states that the black two-headed eagle on a gold shield is the Russian State Arms, not the arms of the Romanovs, and that the great, medium and lesser seal containing the black eagle, etc belong to the Russian State not to the Romanovs:

"The Russian State Coat of Arms is a black double-headed eagle on a gold shield, crowned by two imperial crowns, above which there is a third, bigger crown, of similar appearance, with two undulating ends of ribbon of the Order of St. Andrew, the First-Called. The State eagle is holding a gold scepter and a gold orb. On the breast of the eagle is the Moscow Coat of Arms: a scarlet escutcheon with an image of St. George the Great Martyr and Victory-bearer on horseback, smiting a dragon with a golden spear.
The great State seal contains the escutcheon with the double-headed eagle described above, crowned by the helmet of Grand Duke Saint Alexander Nevsky and encircled by the chain of the Order of St. Andrew, the First-Called; on either side -- depictions of Archangel Michael and Archangel Gabriel; above all -- a gold pavilion studded with two-headed eagles and lined with ermine bearing the inscription: “God is with us”; above the pavilion -- the Imperial crown and State gonfalon. Around the escutcheon are depicted the ancestral coat of arms of His Imperial Majesty and the coat of arms belonging to the Realms of Kazan, Astrakhan, Poland, Siberia, Taurian Khersones and Georgia, the Grand Duchies of Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod and Finland; above the pavilion -- combined on six shields the coat of arms of the other Principalities and Provinces, named in the full Imperial title (article 59). This full title of His Imperial Majesty is placed along the rim of the seal.
The medium State seal contains the same depictions as on the great seal except for the State gonfalon and the six shields with the combined coat of arms of Principalities and Provinces located above the pavilion. Along the rim -- the abridged version of the Imperial title (article 60, paragraph 1).
The small State seal is in general similar to the medium seal but lacks the images of the Holy Archangels and the ancestral Coat of Arms of His Imperial Majesty, and the coat of arms of the Kingdoms and Principalities encircling the main escutcheon are situated on the wings of the eagle. Along the rim of the seal -- the brief version of the Imperial title(article 60, paragraph 2)."

See www.imperialhouse.ru/eng/dynastyhistory/dinzak1/446.html

Whether most people refer to the black eagle as the Romanov eagle does not make it so - at least in the eyes of the Romanov Emperors who promulgated the laws.

[boaris]

Donald, I too find offensive that these former communists and republicans use a copy with small changes to the Imperial Coats of Arms from the butchered Imperial Family - with crowns, orbs and sceptres as their symbol. It may not be heraldically exactly the same, but to everyone who is not a student of heraldry, it is.

It is also highly offensive.

[donald1941]

That is the whole point of my original message at the beginning of this post. This eagle now used as the state symbol of the Russian Federation was chosen as the new symbol of the new Russia because it had continuity with the old Russia. By observer's reasoning then they are just following tradition of chosing a symbol that is closely associated with Russia. Whether you call it a Romanov eagle or a Russian eagle is mere babble.
And there hasn't been a Romanov emperor to promulgate laws for ninety one years so it matters little what their eyes or any other part of them thinks, nor is it likely that there will ever be one again. They might well still be sovereign emperor and autocrat if they had listened more to what people think than to their own eyes.

Why are you offended, Boaris, if Russia choses to use a symbol that denotes a continuity that goes back to the time of Ivan III?
If his reasoning is correct it is a Russian symbol, not exclusive to a particular dynasty including the Romanovs. You use the word 'butchered' in refering to the Imperial family. A close look at the numbers shows that a lot more Romanovs escaped from Russia than were killed. And what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. The Whites were just as proficient at butchering people as the Bolsheviks were. And just a year before she herself was killed Alexandra wrote in a letter to her husband that some members of the State Duma should be taken out and hung [note: without trial or judicial process].
It may be highly offensive to you but to a whole lot of people the fact that Russia and Russians are trying to come to some terms with their past and make some sense out of a bloody time means hope, not hate.
I would imagine that 98% of Russian citizens today are indifferent to the nostalgia for a family that considered themselves to be God's voice on earth and that one man could hold the destiny of millions of people in his feeble hands. He was a man of little imagination or ability, a muddler and a man of little significance which even his own relatives and most observers even at that time pretty much agreed upon. Had he not been lucky in the lottery of birth and born a prince he probably would have made nice lieutenant colonel in some regiment. A nice man, a good husband, a loving father but a very incompetent ruler. When his time came to go, very few, his generals, his ministers, nor most of his people shed a single tear. When the civil war broke out, not one single party involved in it was fighting to restore Nicholas II and Alexandra to any power whatsoever. They were, to use a cliche, in the dustbin of history.
He was the only ruler during World War I to be kicked off his throne while his country was still fighting and doing better. Most of the others got booted only when defeat came. That speaks volumes.

And it was the same former communist and republicans who had the good grace to use taxpayers money to bring the remains of that 'butchered' family from their swampy grave to lie with their ancestors in the gilt and glory of the cathedral where the Romanovs are buried. Against the wishes, I might add, of the very Russian Orthodox Church, which had been one of the pillars of the Romanov autocracy and one of the primary exponents of the hideous anti-Semitism of the imperial regime.

[donald1941]

While you may not think that the black, double headed eagle was a Romanov symbol, evidently the Romanov family did. Here in front of me is a color photograph of the coat of arms of Prince of the Imperial Blood, with the style of Your Highness. The date is late 1880s, 1890s.
In other words, a Romanov family symbol as well as the state symbol:

Shield: Two headed black eagle, the imperial crown connecting the two heads by a blue ribbon, golden sceptre in the right claw, golden orb in the left claw, and carrying a shield showing St. George, horsed, slaying the Dragon
Supporters: Two golden griffins, rampant
Crest: Russian medieval helmet, full front
Surrounded by the collar with badge of the Imperial Order of St. Andrew the First Called
The whole Mantled with a golden mantle, seme with doubled headed black eagles, surmounted with the Imperial Crown.

This would indicate to me that even Romanov princes no longer regarded as Imperial Grand Dukes considered the black eagle to be a family symbol rather than the griffins.

It probably why the King of Spain and his son have a coat of arms with the fleur d'ys on it. Considered a Bourbon symbol, it came with the first Bourbon king of Spain. It was not just the symbol of royal France, even though that was the coat of arms of the Kings of France until 1830.

Of course, I suppose, it is all in one's point of view.

[observer]

Donaldetc, I don't doubt that you have such pictures or that the Romanov family used the double-headed eagle in the 1880s and 1890s. At that time, as the ruling family, they were entitled to use the state arms as what are technically (sorry to use that word again) known as Arms of Dominion. As Wikipedia and other sites point out, the British Queen and her family use the UK royal coat of arms in the same fashion - see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_coat_of_arms_of_the_United_Kingdom. and also historymedren.about.com/od/pimbley/a/pim_a_4.htm for "Arms of Dominion - Are those belonging to empires, kingdoms, principalities, states, etc., officially used by the ruler de facto.....Occasionally the arms of dominion were those of an early sovereign or governor. "

As Velde points out, the fleur-de-lys as the Arms of France, date back to at least the 12th century, long before the Bourbon family became Kings of France. Lilies were later adopted by the family now known as Bourbon when Robert, Count of Clermont, married Beatrix of Burgundy, heiress to Bourbon, in 1272. In any event, the French courts have ruled since at least 1988-9 that the Bourbon lilies are not Arms of Dominion but family arms, as Velde points out - see www.heraldica.org/topics/bourbon.htm.

As you say - it is all in one point of view.

[donald1941]

I do not intend to continue this debate further.

I believe I have made all the points I think I need to let you know that I am not some ignorant poster who needed to be corrected that a Romanov eagle is black and thus the current Russian eagle could't be Romanov.

I have been well aware of that difference since Yelsin got the current arms adopted. I have been a student of heraldry for over forty years, and I do know a thing or two about royal arms.

Whether you intended to be rather corrective, with just a slight overture of dismissal, of my supposed ignorance in your reply to my original post or not, it is very much how I took it by the wording. If I erred in so interpreting your words, I ask pardon. It is probably a lesson to all to be careful how we respond to one another.

If I have offended here in any way, I apologize to all.

I believe it a common usage that all former royal houses use the arms of dominion of their country as their arms now, rather than the original arms of their family. If you go look at the websites of such former ruling houses as the Hohenzollerns, the Grecias, the Karageorgevichs, they all use the arms of dominion. I suspect that if the House of Windsor ever is booted from the throne they will also use the current royal arms as theirs.

[observer]

Donald

I am sorry you feel it necessary to discontinue what I was enjoying as an interesting debate from two different perspectives on the arms used by modern Russia, and their similarities and differences used during the time of the imperial dynasty. I was certainly not offended by anything you wrote and looked forward eagerly to your response to my postings. I think that debates such as the one just finished are one of the strengths of this Board. Thank you for an interesting time.